This forum has moved! Please join us at: TardisBuilders.com
NOTE: If you have an account here, registering at the new site will be quicker if you use the same username and email address. If you need to use a different email address, please update it in your profile here before registering at the new site.
Weather damage (my experience) « Thread Started on Jun 18, 2008, 10:47pm »
Thought I would share some experience I have had in the past, and some preventative measures you can take assuming that you haven't already.
My box is constructed mainly of 3/4" WPB ply and originally coated with a polyester gel coat to give it A) Texture and B) weather protection (well, if it works for boats and all that!)
Anyway, assuming all was well, I didn't bother periodically checking the box over. About 18-months later, I found that the roof, signs (and boxes), doors and windows were shot to pieces. The base and one wall sustained terrible damage too.
What had happened after dismantling the box became very apparent.
Roof - Gelcoat cracks with temperature changes allowed water to get into all joins. New roof.
Corner posts swelled up and warped - new corner posts required.
Fibreglass window frames had twisted out of shape with terrific heat build up in box (due to not venting the box), causing slicone seals to fail that were holding the glass in place. I had to fabricate one new side panel as water had seeped in causing rot and excess warping.
New sign boxes constructed due to rot from roof and vinyl graphics letting water in. Signs were not originally backlit.
I had a metal frame constructed to straighten the very warped left hand door as water had crept in behind the vinyl (non backlit) phone panel graphic, and through the screw holes for pull to open sign handle. This is now no longer an opening door and bolted right through. All light switches are now on the rear of this fixed door, so no great problem.
Opening door - water had crept in through the screw holes of the handle, through the lock barrel hole (these locks do let in water as they have no cover) and the window frame as above. New door frame and panel cover required due to excessive warping.
Although the box was treated with a high-end preserver covering every millimetre prior to construction and assembly, this clearly failed.
My advice from my expensive and time consuming experience would be to tend to the following...
PREVENTATIVE MEASURES
Do not use any form of gelcoat - the thicker you apply, the more brittle it becomes. Also, there is very little movement with this, so expansion and contraction WILL crack it allowing water to get to the wood.
Do not use any form of silicone sealant. If you can, use a product such as Sikaflex 227 to join the box, caulk joints and fix glass in place. It can also be overpainted and will not fail.
Use a product such as Isoflex liquid rubber internally as well as externally - yes, it is expensive, but can be the difference between a box lasting many years, or one deteriorating rapidly. Pay attention to all edges prior to assembly, just in case any water gets into a joint. It cannot do any harm if it does. Also, ALWAYS use the Isoflex primer first. This gives a sort of chemical reaction with the rubber final coat, and bonds like
Without the special primer, there is the chance the rubber coating won't take and starts peeling/bubbling in places.
You WILL experience some form of condensation (even with venting) inside. If everything is coated in rubber, it cannot do any harm or cause mould.
Seal everything - before you install your lock barrel, use liquid rubber or Sikaflex to line the barrel hole. Water does get in there, and will cause swelling, warping of the door and decay. These locks have no cover plate, so water will get into the lock via the key hole. Same with the handles - seal them, seal the screw holes before putting the screws in as water will travel down the screw thread into the doors causing swelling, warping and decay.
Think about installing a rubber seal around the entire door. I have now done this, so when I shut it, it is a bit like a car door in as much as you have to slam it. But as a "Brucie Bonus" - it does have a 'Germanic thunk' when you do...sort of Audiish , but water will not get in.
For those of you with inwardly opening doors, invest in a rubber draught strip to mount on the lower rear of the door. It's like a wiper blade, but I guarantee that if istalled correctly, water will not creep inside from underneath the door.
Ventilation - this is so important, so consider that if you have taken the above steps, your TARDIS will be virtually airtight. Think about venting the base and the roof via the lamp housing. This creates airflow, so reduces the chance of condensation and terrific heat build up. You ideally want cold air in from the ground pushing out the hot air from the top.
It's gut wrenching to see so much effort destroyed by Mother Nature, and I'm sure that we all want to enjoy these boxes for many, many years.
Hope this helps
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2008, 12:44am by anotherwheeze »
terrific heat build up in box (due to not venting the box)
I suspect that's one of the big things that outdoor builders don't think enough about. Having wildly different interior and exterior temperatures will create a lot of problems.
Quote:
My box is constructed mainly of 3/4" WPB ply and originally coated with a polyester gel coat to give it A) Texture and B) weather protection (well, if it works for boats and all that!) ... Roof - Gelcoat cracks with temperature changes allowed water to get into all joins. New roof. ... Do not use any form of gelcoat - the thicker you apply, the more brittle it becomes. Also, there is very little movement with this, so expansion and contraction WILL crack it allowing water to get to the wood.
I have a fairly thick layer of epoxy on my roof and it's been sitting outside for two years in temperatures varying from -27°C to +36°C, but I don't have any cracking. The two big differences being firstly that since mine isn't an enclosed structure - there isn't a big difference in temperatures between top and bottom, and secondly that I've got a layer of fiberglass cloth embedded in the epoxy. I was wondering if I were overdoing it with the fiberglass, but from your example I'm glad that I'm using it. Resin is fairly brittle, but fiberglass cloth has a tensile strength greater than steel. There were some places that I wasn't planning on putting down cloth, but I think I will now.
Of course, I'll have to see how it fares once my box is complete, but I have high hopes.
Do you have any pictures that you can show us of the damage?
Re: Weather damage (my experience) « Reply #2 on Jun 19, 2008, 9:24pm »
Hi Colin,
I don't think you will have many, if any problems with your build
Agreed, I don't think many people (myself included) realise that the temperature changes can cause such a potential problem. Venting is a must like I described above, or as Chris KingBees has done with his sign boxes. This will help control some of the expansion. Obviously, when yours is assembled you will find out (if you pardon the pun) if you have cracked it! There is a big difference between assembled, and in bits outside as you rightly pointed out.
Something else to bear in mind... different thicknesses of materials. I'll give an example - my roof is made from 1/4" WPB ply on the slopes. Although the same material as the rest of the box, it is thinner, therefore reacts differently to the thicker ply with temp changes. There is a softwood frame also, again the same problem. I was convinced that I had is sussed the first time around with the gelcoat, but I was wrong. Having said that, I used no form of reinforcement as you have.
This time around I did, but as some of the box had the gelcoat and I quite liked the texture (it sort of looks like cast iron with paint build up and runs, also crazing) I did the same again, but used the isoflex primer first to give some 'bite', then rubber x 2 coats, chopped strands etc. before painting.
Now I am happier than before, but still think I made a mistake using gelcoat again. Let me explain... me being the impatient kind primed, but applied the gelcoat to the primer whilst it was still tacky in some areas, one of them being part of the roof. Well two weeks after completing the box I noticed the damn gelcoat had cracked again. I stripped it off (the Isoflex primer was still on the wood thankfully, reprimed and used liquid rubber to cover up that area minus the gelcoat.
Now this area was in direct sunlight with the brunt of the afternoon sun beating down on this area for a number of hours. I put this down to the tacky primer as gelcoat has a wax in it to help it flow, so the two didn't bind, and also the temperature changes causing expansion and contraction. Gelcoat doesn't like this.
I have read a lot on boating stuff, and it is widely recognised that the gelcoat should be kept thin so it doesn't become brittle. Of course I have applied pretty thick in some places to achieve texture.
I think we will have to see what happens in time. We are all experimenting, and someone will have the right formula licked I'm sure. I just have a feeling that another refurb may be on the cards for my box before the year is out, but only in the places where I was impatient!
I'm just glad I don't have your extremes of temperature to deal with. I do however live in the middle of nowhere on an old converted farm, at the bottom of a "huge" hill which throws off a lot of damp in the evening, even in the summer.
My main concern for everyone would be to seal all screw holes and the lock barrel hole. My old lock was knackered with rust after only a short time.
Reminds me... grease the entire lock mechanism and a little WD40 as I have. My new yale cost a bomb, so I want it lasting as long as possible.
Unfortunately I have no photos of the damage Colin. I was too depressed to take any at that time as I just wanted to get the box fixed ASAP. I didn't take any of the refurb either as I was going through some personal problems, so just got stuck into things. I could kick myself now though for not doing it
« Last Edit: Jun 19, 2008, 9:34pm by anotherwheeze »
Joined: Oct 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 428 Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada Karma: 150,159
Re: Weather damage (my experience) « Reply #3 on Jun 19, 2008, 11:32pm »
We may have extremes in temperature, but we don't have a lot of humidity to deal which might also help my build.
Should the gel coat go on top of primer? I don't really know a lot about polyester resins having decided to use epoxy instead, but with the epoxy I'm putting it directly onto the raw wood (after sanding a bit to give it a rougher surface to grab onto), and then putting my paint primer on top of the epoxy. Or are you talking about some sort of polyester resin primer?
I'm not surprised that you didn't take any pictures. I just remember that before I started my build, I saw some pictures of someone's TARDIS that had rotted away in something like a year or two. I don't know where I saw them or who they belonged to, but it really made me start thinking what I could do to avoid this fate. If anyone knows where these pictures are, please let me know.
You mention WD-40. I'd just like to point out that WD-40 is a solvent which will remove any grease that you may actually want to keep. I know that I've been told to never use WD-40 in electrical motors for example, since it will dissolve the grease that's supposed to be inside the motor - and ruin it. It does have lubricants, but you may want to apply other stuff to supplement them after using WD-40.
Colin (who used to think that WD-40 and duct tape could fix anything)
Re: Weather damage (my experience) « Reply #4 on Jun 21, 2008, 10:33pm »
No experience of epoxy resin myself, apart from knowing it is a tough as nails, and rather expensive. I think you should be fine.
The primer I was referring to is the Isoflex one. Once dried, nothing, but nothing shifts it. So my cunning plan was to use this and then gelcoat, rather than applying gelcoat direct to the wood as before. I just got rather impatient in some areas and proceeded to apply gelcoat before the isoflex primer had fully cured. Trouble is, I don't know how many other areas were affected Time will tell.
Should I have to do this all again, I would give the gelcoat a miss TBH.
You can get a great texture from Isoflex rubber and chopped strands. So IF I were to build another box (probably a met box after seeing KB's!) this is how I would do it with 99.9% confidence. I'm at around 75-80% confident with what I have done (was 90% before the roof cracked!)
I'm terrible for photographing things. I was too down at the damage the TARDIS suffered the frst time around, so just wanted to get on and get it done. Plus my camera is broken due to an incident with some apple juice after initially going missing...later found in a toy box! Sometimes it works, sometimes not, so have resorted to the old mobile phone camera, which isn't too clever.
I'm currently landscaping the garden - shifted around 200 tons of earth so far Started to take photos over the first couple of days...and nothing in the last week, so the missus will 'not' be happy that we haven't a record of each stage
I just get too involved in what I'm doing I guess, so forget to take photos
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 321 Location: Moline, IL USA Karma: 585
Re: Weather damage (my experience) « Reply #5 on Aug 3, 2008, 11:32am »
I have a question that hopefully someone will know the answer...............
I keep hearing about Isoflex Liquid Rubber. Has anyone in the States found a similar product that can be used and if so where? I searched for this product and I believe it is only available in the UK?
I have a question that hopefully someone will know the answer...............
I keep hearing about Isoflex Liquid Rubber. Has anyone in the States found a similar product that can be used and if so where? I searched for this product and I believe it is only available in the UK?
Isoflex Liquid Rubber is a flexible rubber coating for roofs. Doing a quick search on Google, I found: Liquid Rubber from Pro Guard Coatings which seems to be the same sort of thing.
Re: Weather damage (my experience) « Reply #7 on Jan 25, 2010, 7:57pm »
I'm going to ask a newb question because i haven't yet begun my physical build let alone gotten that far along that I am working on the roof, but here goes...
has anyone considered trying to use Hardie Panels for the roof? or infact any part where plywood would be used, either instead of or on top of.
For those unaware James Hardie manufactures a number of "siding" products for houses in the USA which are in essence concrete fibre. While brittle and a pain in the ass to use once up is actually quite resiliant to the weather and warping...
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 60 Location: Vermont Karma: 6
Re: Weather damage (my experience) « Reply #8 on Jan 25, 2010, 9:41pm »
I think that sounds like a good idea the weight on those hardy boards would be pretty heavy being concrete based. Do they make panels wide enough where you could cut the roof sections out? You also need to consider getting the roof up into position, if this is a build it and leave it arrangement you are ok, if you want something that can be broken down and moved then heaving a roof sheathed with concrete and fiber may be a bit taxing.
Re: Weather damage (my experience) « Reply #9 on Jan 26, 2010, 4:43am »
Hardie panels are not much heavier than regular house siding... certainly lighter than some of the plywood panels out there, and yes they do make them in 8'x4' panels, with different patterns, though there are some that look plain or you could even flip them over as the backs are plain....
I was only thinking of it as a solution to some of the problems people seem to be having with exterior boxes. Which for the record is what I will be building....
I am actually half considering the idea of cladding the frame with the stuff (there are panels with pronounce wood grain style patterning), it would certainly weather proof the box, I just don't know how feasible it would be
This forum has moved! Please join us at: TardisBuilders.com ![[Home]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/topics.png "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif "[Search]")
![[Login]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif "[Login]")
Recent posts
How to post pics![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
![[avatar]](http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll222/jayzee_101/Image025-1.jpg "[avatar]")
, but water will not get in. 
Logged![[avatar]](http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d4/sorvan/non-build/BigSnit-sawing.gif "[avatar]")
I do however live in the middle of nowhere on an old converted farm, at the bottom of a "huge" hill which throws off a lot of damp in the evening, even in the summer.
![[avatar]](http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f139/gemini39usa/IMG00154.jpg "[avatar]")
![[homepage]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif "[homepage]")
![[image]](http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f139/gemini39usa/badwolf3.jpg "[image]")